Episode 13

[00:00]Kim: Business development is a newer evolution within law firms, it‘s still and a bit of an enigma in some ways. It‘s not just like I‘m connected to you on LinkedIn, therefore we‘re, we are tight. It‘s how are we building reciprocity in each other‘s relationships network more broadly? CX is client satisfaction at its core.

[00:20] How you deliver it is operational at its core. So how happy are our clients? It‘s not just about making your clients feel warm and fuzzy, it‘s genuinely about making more money.

[00:29]Sarah: There is a culture of . I should know how to do that, and I shouldn‘t need to ask for help.

[00:36]Kim: And I do think vulnerability is a core strength, which sounds ridiculous. It‘s a core strength to have. Being okay with being vulnerable. Yeah. ‘cause that enables you to grow.

[00:51]Sarah: Hello and welcome to this Multidisciplinary Life. My guest today is Kim Wiegand. She‘s the founder of Julip Advisory, and Kim is a specialist in helping lawyers grow their firms through sustainable growth, cultural transformation, and most importantly, client-centric innovation.

[01:09] She has extensive experience as a marketer and business development specialist. She was the first female partner of Beaton Research and Consulting, and she led strategic, operational and transformational initiatives across law, accounting and engineering firms. During her tenure, when I first came across Kim‘s work, I couldn‘t wait to meet her.

[01:28] How does someone with a business and marketing degree become such a specialized asset to the legal profession and what made her travel this path? We talk about Kim‘s unique career journey, learning on the job, and the tremendous value of consulting and priming before big meetings. Let‘s get into it and chat through this multidisciplinary life with Kim Wiegand.

[01:55] Kim? Hello.

[01:56]Kim: Hi, Sarah.

[01:57]Sarah: I‘m so excited we‘re having this conversation.

[01:59]Kim: I am too.

[02:00]Sarah: Wonderful. So we have a lot of different things to talk about today, and we are gonna get into them quite a bit, which I‘m so excited for.

[02:11]Kim: I promise to have articulate short, concise answers.

[02:13]Sarah: I‘ve No doubt you will. I have no doubt you will.

[02:16] I wanna ask you a question first about your background. . Because you have this really strong background in business development and marketing. And you‘ve become really well known as a specialist within the legal profession. . Out of all the professional services you could choose, even probably out of the different sectors you could choose.

[02:36] Why

[02:36] law?

[02:37]Kim: Such a great question. I think how I got into law and why I stayed in law, probably two sides of a coin. I got into law by accident. Purely I was working in professional services while still finishing my degree, and I worked with some great humans in law firms. . In the marketing BD functions.

[02:57] They‘re really just marketing functions. This is 20 plus years ago, and they were excellent and they looked like they loved what they were doing, and I thought, I actually would love to do that thing. So it was like a natural evolution to move into a law firm. And I found once I was in a law firm, I really enjoyed how it operated.

[03:17] Which is, I think it either gels with you or it doesn‘t. . It‘s hierarchical. It‘s fairly political. It‘s really backwards and traditional in many ways, but it‘s very human. And I think you‘re dealing with humans and people and their own agendas and it‘s navigating , that I really enjoyed.

[03:35] And also being. At that point, the concept of marketing business development within a law firm was still evolving. . It‘s still evolving now, cracky, but way back when it was almost like you could make up what you did because there was no. Roadmap. . There was no blueprint . For this thing, and it was evolving quite quickly.

[03:57] Which meant I had a lot of opportunity to test myself and shape around the kind of work I did, shape my skills around the work I did push into areas that perhaps. I probably wasn‘t qualified at the time to do, to be honest with you, but we made it work as we went along.

[04:13]Sarah: And that was in business development and marketing.

[04:15]Kim: Traditionally marketing.. So business development is a newer evolution within law firms it‘s still and a bit of an enigma in some ways. . Is it just supporting, facilitating a sales process or, some firms now are looking for business developers to go out into the market. Yeah. And sell and find leads.

[04:33]Sarah: So on their behalf.

[04:34]Kim: On their behalf, yeah. That‘s happening. . It‘s starting. So I think that trend big consulting agencies, they‘ve been there for a while. Yeah. Laws catching up. So I got in by accident, but really enjoyed it. And why I‘ve stayed is that changing and evolving so quickly at pace and I‘ve, it‘s continued to entertain and engage me through each stage of my career as I‘ve evolved up to a leadership level.

[04:58] Looking at now strategy and operationalizing significant strategic objectives, those kinds of things, you need to have an understanding of how the functions work and operate in the, minutiae of it. . Because it‘s so much. More to it than just a marketing campaign. Yeah. It‘s people orientated, its systems, it‘s collaborative, it‘s, I think it‘s a wonderful place to be.

[05:22] So I still to this day, maintain for all my sins. I‘m meant to be in law firms.

[05:27]Sarah: Yep.

[05:27]Kim: I enjoy it.

[05:29]Sarah: Can you only get that operational empathy or that operational understanding by living it?

[05:36]Kim: No, I do think it‘s transferable. understand how various different operations work . In different organizations, you or even I suppose through uni and other things, you could learn how businesses operate.

[05:48]Sarah: Figure it out.

[05:49]Kim: You could figure it out. Yeah. I do think it‘s like anything though, it‘s time on your feet. Yeah. And it‘s the more time you‘ve had on your feet. Whoever your leader is showcasing to you and, giving you room to try different things leading you guiding you along that way.

[06:06] I. I think that‘s helpful. Yeah. But I do think it‘s time on your feet.

[06:10]Sarah: Yeah. And that space to experiment that you described early on, especially in the marketing space within law, that sounds rare.

[06:20]Kim: Do

[06:20] you know?

[06:21] Early

[06:21] days? I think it‘s ‘cause they didn‘t know better. Yeah. And maybe still now they don‘t know better.

[06:24] I, don‘t know. I think very early days. I said I felt like I was a bit of a law unto myself, which was daunting. I remember going to, I was on a committee for. What was then apma, which is the Australasian Professional Services Marketing Association, which doesn‘t exist anymore. It‘s now icon. Or it might‘ve been something else that I, anyway, I was on a committee Yeah.

[06:42] Of some description. And I was the marketing manager of a law firm and we were going through a rebrand. Unbeknownst to me, they were rebranding partly in an effort to be attractive to, merger opportunities. And need to level up. ‘cause they were very traditional and old school.

[06:58]Sarah: But you didn‘t know this at time?

[06:59]Kim: I didn‘t know this. No, I was below my pay grade, but they did put me in charge of, branding agencies, websites, merchandise, printing out new everything, new logos, all the rest signage. I remember going to one of these meetings and going, guys, I have no idea what I‘m doing.

[07:17] Genuinely. And all of my wonderful peers were like, oh, it‘s okay. So they guided me and helped me and I‘m still very good friends with many of them today. Have, having that comradery to go crisis, I don‘t know. I‘m doing, so part of it I think was, I had autonomy in that space to grow and shift and change partly through ignorance.

[07:35] Yeah. And they didn‘t know better, and I didn‘t really know better, so I was like, okay, let‘s work it through. Separately. I‘ve had some amazing leaders in my time and I think they‘ve shaped my leadership approach. And my style to leadership, which is a little bit at its very base level as I‘m gonna give you as much rope as you need to hang yourself, but I‘m gonna stop you just before you do.

[07:53] Yeah. So you know which. For some people is terror personified. For someone who is quite autonomous and loves to learn change. It is, it‘s amazing. so for, me, that is a leadership style that I very much orientate to and respond to. And I knew I had a safety net there. I knew that, that psychological safety, although way back when you didn‘t, we didn‘t call it psychological safety.

[08:15] It was just I had a good job boss who was really, supportive of me. So I think if, I reflect on it, I‘ve had some amazing opportunities because of the leaders I‘ve had. Who had trust in me. And could see I could do this thing. And I‘m very much more of a self-starter than probably I give myself credit for.

[08:34] If I don‘t understand it, I‘ll go and work it out. I‘ll go and ask people. I‘ll get feedback and all of the. I suppose network building I‘ve done throughout my career, I still leverage now for that purpose. Yeah. ‘cause even when I walk into situations with clients now, or firms and I don‘t quite understand, I‘ve gone ask someone to work out how to do it.

[08:52] So I think I‘ve had opportunities, but that‘s also probably partly my natural style as well.

[08:56]Sarah: How did you learn to be a self-starter?

[08:59]Kim: Do you know? I dunno if actually you, could qualify it as self-starter. I‘m probably. Like in terms of Sure. That‘s probably what, it‘s a nice term for it. My, my worst nightmare is stasis.

[09:13] and some people are like, can‘t you just coast for a bit? Which is I wonderful. Yeah. Because I‘m constantly wanting to discover and learn and grow and change and, get interested in different things. Yeah. And go, that‘s interesting. I wanna know more. So I think it‘s actually probably more my personality is just a little bit.

[09:32] Don‘t stand still. Yep. So probably a better term for it is I‘m, I don‘t like stasis.

[09:37]Sarah: Yep. Yep. I feel like my mum sometimes wonders if I could just coast for a bit

[09:43]Kim: why that would just have a rest, Sarah. Yeah. This is so boring. I, do think though, there‘s, a difference between stasis and work-life balance, right?

[09:54] And within the legal industry, I‘m not sure we‘ve got those right? Yet. Stasis and not moving forward is different from taking your foot off and establishing balance within a work life context. And it‘s taken me a little bit of time to work that out. To be honest with you.

[10:11] So yeah, I encourage work life balance, but I don‘t encourage stasis.

[10:16]Sarah: .

[10:16] Yeah.

[10:19] I guess after that time you moved into, there was some research that you‘ve done, you‘ve gone into much more strategic roles and that network piece and that stakeholder piece. Sounds like it‘s been a really important factor throughout your career.

[10:36] What‘s that? How did you move into those more strategic spaces?

[10:40]Kim: And this is, I wish I had. I had a roadmap or someone to look to 15 years ago, To go, oh, that‘s how they did it. And Oh, okay. I could be much more purposeful about what I would do only so much further ahead in many areas of my life.

[10:57] It was by, again, by pure accident. And by interest. So I think, again, the roles I‘ve been in allowed me access to partnership groups. So being the BD person, I was, privileged enough to be the only person within a particular space in a big magic circle law firm, in the UK for a number of years.

[11:17] And I built a lot of credibly entrust with a partnership. So I got access to and did some very cool things again, things that I look back on now going, that was amazing that we did that thing. But again, no roadmap for it. Yeah. But it was just a cool thing they did at the time. Yeah. I now lean on and leverage that as a, a framework for things that I implement now.

[11:36] Again, by accident then. Then, an interest in collaborating with partners in different parts of the firm to create some, great initiatives. So having access to a senior group of amazing partners, global partners who had trust in me to do those things meant that I was probably privy to and able to help shape, for example, a, a global department strategy very early in my career, which.

[12:03] I went, God, I love that. That was really exciting. Not just the creation of a strategy that‘s a plan on a page, right? that‘s a, direction where we‘re headed. That‘s what we wanna achieve. It‘s what goes underneath that. That I, really enjoy. And that‘s probably the work that I.

[12:18] I value the most, just going, yeah, but how will we get there? And again, I‘ve taken that forward into each role that I‘ve be been in, whether it‘s stated on the position description, this is your job or not. And then it becomes a second nature to be like, okay, that‘s the end point to just make sense then that we work backwards and say, okay, what, do we need to do underneath?

[12:37] What‘s gonna enable that? What are the, the major ways we‘re gonna measure that, So it became less of a. You probably would pick it up at an MBA now in like the first module. But it took, a number of years and different roles to create a really deep understanding of how law firms operate.

[12:56] Yep. Pitfalls, triggers different stakeholder groups and I suppose a toolkit of different programs and enablers. Levers that you can use across a firm. Throughout that whole process, my network, I‘m a people person, right? So I, love connecting with people and I love sharing ideas and concepts, and so building a network that I could reference.

[13:25] And I can go back to Which I would do regularly. Yeah. To check on how do I access this? How do I shift that? Could you help me with this? I don‘t have access to this. Could you give me access to that? Maybe outside of the firm in terms of even articles on things and. I have, I feel like no shame in asking people for help.

[13:45] Because I know people regularly ask me for help. Yeah. So that‘s that sort of symbiotic, network. It‘s not just like I‘m connected to you on LinkedIn, therefore we‘re, we are tight. It‘s how are we building reciprocity in each other‘s relationships and network more broadly.

[13:59]Sarah: Absolutely.

[14:01]Kim: to be a value to each other when we need it. So I have absolutely lent on that. So I think coupled with having access to do some very cool stuff. Probably before I was ready to, having a network and having built a network and continuing to build a network where I can go, I don‘t know what I‘m doing here.

[14:18] Can you help me? And not being afraid and ashamed to ask for help. I think that‘s a really valuable combination. That again, I couldn‘t preplan that. Whereas younger people now, I would encourage anyone to say, if you haven‘t started building your network whilst you‘re at uni, do that thing.

[14:34]Sarah: Yeah.

[14:36]Kim: it‘s so valuable. It‘s so valuable. It will be the most valuable thing for you throughout your entire career. And the ability in a safe and trusted environment. ‘cause you are always gonna come across things that you don‘t understand or don‘t know, simple. And I‘m showing my hand here. I pitched for a big, project recently.

[14:55] And I, I‘m a bit outta touch with rates and how, firms ridiculously I should know, but how firms would be reviewing on a procurement basis daily rates, et cetera. Both here in the uk and it‘s a UK based client. I called someone who I‘ve only known for six months. I‘ve only spoken to him twice, but we‘ve connected and And shared, and he‘s in the same space. And I asked unashamedly, please, could I ask for your guidance? I don‘t know what I‘m doing here. Gosh, he was so helpful. He gave me a lot of time, helped me shape it. Yeah. and it took confidence and guts to call and say, I don‘t know how to do this. Yeah. I need your help.

[15:30] Yeah. But equally. Generosity of spirit on his end. Exactly. Yeah. Again, strength of network, it‘s valuable.

[15:38] I dunno if I answered your question.

[15:39]Sarah: Just You did. No, you did it. It made me think of something else though, as you were describing that ability to ask someone for help, which was on the flip side, there are people throughout professional services and probably through all different industries where there is a culture of.

[15:58] I should know how to do that. I should know how to do that and I shouldn‘t need to ask for help. How do you help someone shift that thinking if they want to shift it, but struggle just in that moment? To go, oh, but I dunno what to say to that person, or if I know who to ask, I don‘t know.

[16:21] How to ask it in a way that still makes me feel confident. Yes. And get what I need.

[16:28]Kim: I think part of it is in the legal industry particularly, we don‘t have a culture. It‘s a culture of ego. Which is not invented in a negative way. It‘s a culture of sta not stasis, sorry, status. culture of status hierarchy, et cetera. And yes. Vulnerability. Showing your hand to say, I dunno how to do this. It feels scary. Yeah. And it feels vulnerable and absolutely you‘re gonna be completely ostracized. I‘ve been there, I felt that way. Do you know I had a, conversation with someone a couple of years ago, a woman I greatly admire.

[17:05] She‘s written many books, travels around. She‘s wonderful, absolutely wonderful. And I wanted her to speak at an event that I was hosting to raise funds for. Women‘s legal service. And we went through this little dance for this, half an hour and how are you, I know what‘s going on. And I‘d asked her for time and and then I was like, I know you‘re probably very busy, and I, know the reason for my call.

[17:27] And she cut me off and said, Kim, you have to learn to just ask for what you want, ask for what you need or ask for what you don‘t know. So she just said this to me. I was like, oh my gosh. And so in one sentence I said, would you please come and facilitate this session for me? And she, was like, I would love to, and as it turns out, she was traveling overseas at the date, so she couldn‘t Yeah.

[17:46] But it‘s, I have reflected on that a lot. She knew what was happening. She knew why I‘d contacted and she let me go through the dance. Yeah. And then fluff my way into trying to ask for a favor or ask for help. And I come back to saying, and that was only a couple of years ago, right? Like I was well into my career by then. I‘ve reflected on that, and I think I‘ve shifted even the last few years being clearer about. I need to ask for your help with something. I need to ask for your guidance. There is no one on the planet who knows how to do all the things. No. There is no one in legal services who knows how to do all the things.

[18:25] It‘s evolving so quickly. Yeah. If I look at my career. There is no one year that‘s been the same. there‘s no one year. I have just turned the handle on the next thing that I did last year. I‘m evolving and changing and learning and growing and all the time. Partly that‘s because I don‘t like stasis, but partly that‘s because there‘s always something shifting and changing.

[18:45] Yeah. Therefore, how can I be expected to know all the things? Yeah. I think having confidence to ask. I think having a series of things within your toolkit that you can say, oh, it‘s a great question. I just think I wanna check on a few things before I give you an answer. I just wanna go and reflect on or, just have a look back at.

[19:04] some of my papers or whatever it might be, I just wanna come. Can I come back to you? No one will go. No, I need your answer now. Absolutely not. So you‘re allowed to, you sh should feel empowered to that empowerment piece is something that I think has to come from us. ‘cause very rarely, and I coach a lot of people within the industry around BD or like in terms of within BD teams or even partners or essays coming up to partnership.

[19:30]Sarah: Senior associates.

[19:31]Kim: Yeah. Sorry. Yes. Senior associates, the biggest challenge through, and most of ‘em are women, to be fair. Although not all, the biggest challenge that comes out of most of those conversations is a lack of empowerment. I would say to them, what your, anyone who are you expecting to empower you?

[19:48] Yes. It‘s wonderful to have a leader who encourages and is, gonna advocate for you. And you see all the things on LinkedIn, oh, a great leader is this, and this. That‘s wonderful. But empowerment must come from you. You must be like, I got the keys to the faring and I drive it flipping fast and I‘m not gonna scratch it.

[20:05] And I would say that in coaching sessions to go put your foot down. Don‘t stop. So empowerment comes from as well saying, I need to get to X. I‘m just gonna go ahead and get to X as humbly and as gently and as collaboratively as I can, but I‘m not gonna wait for someone to come and tell me what the next step looks like.

[20:24] So for anyone, I think coming through feel empowered.

[20:28] not coming through crisis my age. Feel empowered. Ask for help. Yeah. Unashamedly. And then there‘s, actual science behind it. If you ask someone for help and they use this in a sales process right as well, ask someone for help, they.

[20:44] Nine times outta 10 won‘t say no unless they actually can‘t help you. ‘Cause people genuinely want to help. They do. Yeah. I‘ve never had anyone say, no, sorry, I can‘t help you. Or if they said, I can‘t help you ‘cause I don‘t know that thing, but I‘ll tell, give you interest, connect you with someone who can.

[20:59] Yeah. So feel empowered, ask for help. And thirdly, and this is like a, personal thing, which. I wish people did more and I need to do it more as well. But ask for feedback. How will we ever get better at a thing or know how to take that next step more confidently if we don‘t know where we went off track?

[21:18] Yeah. And that‘s a gift. Yeah. Hard to hear. Yeah. Sometimes

[21:22]Sarah: very hard to, but gift. I love it when, When candidates ask me for feedback right at the end of the interview.

[21:31]Kim: Yeah, I love that.

[21:32]Sarah: And I just think, yes, that was an excellent question. Yeah. I‘m so glad

[21:35] you asked it.

[21:35]Kim: yeah. It‘s awesome. I think someone asked me in an interview once, is there any concern you have or is there any concern you have now about appointing me in the role and I was not expecting it at all?

[21:45]Sarah: Great question.

[21:46]Kim: Such a good question. I‘ve since never had the guts to also ask that question, but I did think at the time I was like, wow, actually no, I think you‘re great. No, I hope I haven‘t given them false hope, but, but yeah,

[21:57] feedback.

[21:57]Sarah: Love it. I love it. Alright, I‘m going to change direction a little bit.

[22:05] When I was reading about you prior to this conversation, I read a description of your, one of your core strengths. Yes. Being the ability to translate strategic ambition into operational reality. Yes. And I love the phrase I wanted to ask you. What does that mean to you?

[22:26]Kim: Good

[22:27] question. Good question. Is it one of those LinkedIn fluffy things?

[22:30] No. what I said before about, having a plan on the page is, excellent and one thing. Yeah. How do you make it happen? I think there was a, there‘s a quote from, I think it‘s Thomas Edison, that, it says, I think it‘s ambition, strategic ambition or vision. I think it‘s vision.

[22:47] Vision without execution is just hallucination. and I love that. and if you think about it, he invented so many wonderful things like the light bulb motion camera. Can you imagine he, if he had at that point said, I‘m gonna create this machine that that takes a moving image of someone and then we can play it back.

[23:06] And they did nothing about it. And that‘s just, that‘s his big ambition. He‘s gonna do this thing and they never actually did anything. Where would we be today? So it‘s the implementation of, and I think. And again, evolution within law firms. I think you‘d be hard pressed to find a firm who doesn‘t have a strategy on a page.

[23:24] we used to joke at a firm I, worked with a number years ago who had a soap strategy on a page, SOAP. And there‘s so many, could be memes came out about, so we are gonna clean up the firm with the soap and, all the things. But it‘s important to have that Vision.

[23:40]Sarah: What does SOAP strategy stand for?

[23:41]Kim: strategy on a page, SOAP acronym. Which was just a, they decided to call it a thing. Yeah. But that just indicated how important it was, right? So they spoke about the soap all the time. What is important though, is not the page that you put on the wall. Which most firms will have, and I spoke to a firm yesterday, has this big ambition of repositioning their firm.

[24:05] I wouldn‘t have known that from the outside looking in. that‘s their ambition, which tells me they haven‘t quite implemented enough. That it‘s evident. I think they may be, they‘re on the start of their journey. But if you have a plan on the page, what sits underneath it. my role, at ASEs, for example, was creating a program.

[24:25] Multifaceted program around one metric. Within their strategy. Their one page strategy, one metric, which is about specific percentage of client growth. That one metric. I had to then implement a plan pro, a multifaceted program, many streams. Involving many parts of the firm that would enable that one metric.

[24:52] What I do see in many firms is they get to, that‘s our big metric, that‘s our big aspirational goal, and then they falter at the actual implementation of it. Yep. There are other firms who‘ve had this plan on a page that I, spoke to just a couple of years ago, and they had this plan running for a number of years.

[25:12] They still hadn‘t actually articulated what the metric meant or where it came from. Yeah, but, so if you don‘t actually understand where that came from or why you‘ve got that on your, how are you activating all of the things that need to happen to make that live? so turning strategic ambition into operational reality is saying, okay, that‘s where you wanna go.

[25:34] You wanna be known as the go-to firm in, I don‘t know, life sciences in Australia. What must happen to enable that? Where are you deficient? Where are you really strong? Do you have the right talent, the right people? do you have a market, profiling campaign? What are you doing in that space? From marketing operations to people and talent and retention and acquisition or hiring of lateral partners, for example, what are you doing in it?

[26:02] Have you got the right systems? Are you using the right systems to enable you to do that work? Can you even deliver on that? Is it high volume, low value? If we need automation. Have you actually got all of the things underneath? And I think sometimes it‘s assumption. it‘s a little bit of a, yeah, we got this.

[26:18] But then when you actually start to map out all the bits and pieces to it, there‘s a lot that goes into enabling a big plan on a page.

[26:26]Sarah: Yeah. And it sounds like part of your strength is really being able to understand at that. Almost that helicopter layer. But then really dive down Yeah. Into the detail.

[26:40] It‘s the minutia and enact it. Yes. And make it happen.

[26:44]Kim: A hundred percent. And I do think I get this often, whenever you ask me, what are you doing now? And oh, I‘m working with a number of fans on some, some of their strategic programs. Oh, so you just do strategy and I think they assume it‘s like you just up in a whiteboard somewhere, Making pretty plans on a page or beautiful PowerPoints. and actually, no, it‘s very roll your sleeves up, kind of work. Because sure, that‘s the goal, but there‘s a whole bunch of stuff in the trenches we‘ve gotta do to enact that and enable that. That‘s the exciting stuff to me.

[27:17] And that‘s probably your comment or question before, around. How does one learn? How does one learn, or, and I said, time on your feet. Yeah. I think, and you asked about the minutia of things. I do think by understanding this layer and having worked in and around and across law firms for so long. It gives you an innate, I don‘t know, understanding, appreciation for how these very unique organizations operate and work and what the level levers are that you need to pull and shift and change and what the pressure points are.

[27:48] don‘t be touching the utilization rates. Like you don‘t wanna steal someone‘s capacity that you wanna make sure they‘re billing as much as they can. Yeah. So understanding all the levers and the, pressure points within a firm. Means whatever you look to implement is really applicable.

[28:03] Yeah. And you‘re not gonna burn the house down. Yeah. So I do think time on your feed is important. You can pull up now on chatGPT or others, any kind of strategic framework you like. Yeah. You can seeing in enacted though, there‘s a fantastic. I‘ve mentioned him to you before, Joel Barolsky, that I‘m, yes.

[28:21] I‘m, meeting with today. Yeah. He ran a program around driving and creating a firm strategy for a firm I worked at. Many years, ago. And it‘s the first time I‘d seen a framework. And whilst I kind of not a long going, oh, I think this is right. And obviously we didn‘t have chatGPT then, and you could go and Google, but then it was very academic.

[28:42] Rather than access now to all the things. And so I went and read the book. I was that excited by and interested in it. I went and read the book and there‘s a book play to win strategy. It‘s a cascading choices model. and I, really enjoyed that book. Ironically, many years later in another firm, the chief client officer had said, I want us to use the cascading choices model.

[29:03] I‘m like, I know that one because I read the book on that. yeah. and I was able to implement that across, all the work that we were doing. And then train my team on it, et cetera, et cetera. having seen those in action, again, time on your feet, you can go and pick up a model tomorrow.

[29:18] There‘s probably five other kinds of models you can use. But having seen it in action and built a bit of a muscle around it and understanding all that was a pressure point. And if we build, from the bottom up. We‘re gonna find this misalignment at the top. You build from the top down, from a strategic plan, you‘re gonna find the teams at the bottom here are gonna go, how does that apply to me?

[29:38] you‘ve gotta have a bit of a, blended approach. Yeah. And, so having that knowledge and appreciation of where things have worked really well and where things have really gone off, off, I think helps now, again, understanding the business model and the structure to implement more efficiently, more effectively, and more impactfully.

[29:57]Sarah: Yeah. As you were describing that experience around sitting at the strategic layer and then diving into the operational aspects and the, execution of that, I couldn‘t help but think whether your marketing knowledge and experience and expertise has helped you develop that. Understanding and that sensitivity around what the business is trying to do and achieve, mixed with the day-to-day realities of actually achieving it.

[30:29] I wondered whether that has ever played a part for you or come to mind.

[30:34]Kim: Do you know what I think my marketing background has given me an appreciation for is the client. And that‘s probably influenced significantly influenced. My approach to client experience and when I. Marketing. Yes.

[30:58] Marketing‘s process. Sorry, coming back to your question, marketing is process and And, lots of tools and, one to many and different approaches. One-to-one different kinds of marketing approaches. Sure. Yes. that‘s helped me understand how the machine operates.

[31:14] Yeah. But I think it‘s given me a better appreciation for clients. A law firm is only in existence For its clients to service its clients. And yet I think there‘s a big distraction around all the operations and the things internally and efficiencies and all the rest of it. But hang on, Your clients are why you‘re here? My marketing background‘s given me appreciation for that and because very much part of my marketing background has been seeking feedback from clients. So often I‘d be either receiving the feedback. Email one at one point in my career, it was literally sending out hard copy paper service, please out this pay, and here‘s a prepaid envelope, number of paper cuts I got from opening notes.

[31:55] Anyway, it‘s beside the point, but actually now it‘s being front and center of proactively going and seeking that feedback On behalf of firms to say, how, are you really perceiving this firm? And, what is your real challenge here? And also the sales process, Is very much.

[32:13] BD orientated. Very much, okay, how are we perceived by the client? What‘s the next step in getting their attention? How are we pro prospecting to them with this concept or idea to, build, considerate that you actually consider us in this way and very much considering the client. That‘s probably more where I feel like my appreciation Has developed based on my background.

[32:34]Sarah: Yeah. Client centricity and client experience. What does client experience mean to you?

[32:42]Kim: It‘s changed. My, my view on client experience has changed Quite a bit over the last four to five years. Fundamentally at the core though. I see it as one of the most substantial market differentiators for Affirm commercial too.

[32:58] It‘s commercial. It‘s not just about making your clients feel warm and fuzzy. It‘s genuinely about making more money. And I you actually say to a client, to a firm, I can guarantee you I‘m gonna make you X million more per year. Would they go ahead and invest heavily? I dunno yet. I dunno. but I think it‘s, fundamentally commercial, operational should be client centric.

[33:19] CX is client satisfaction at its core. How you deliver it is operational at its core. So how happy are our clients? How will much are they gonna buy from us? Refer, pay us more. All of those wonderful things. How happy were they with the service and how do we compare to others? But how firms implement it is very operational.

[33:41] Who in your opinion, is responsible for delivering the client experience?

[33:46] I would say who is ultimately

[33:47] accountable.

[33:48]Sarah: Ultimately accountable. My, in my first instinct is to say it‘s everybody‘s responsibility.

[33:56]Kim: The challenge being. Who would you say is ultimately responsible for the financial state of a firm?

[34:02] I

[34:02]Sarah: would say it‘s a CFO.

[34:03]Kim: Yeah. And who would you say is ultimately responsible for the technology and tech stack and the efficiencies across the technology elements?

[34:09]Sarah: It‘d be a CTO.

[34:10]Kim: Yeah. But there‘s no one person who‘s responsible for cx No. And driving cx, right? Yeah. Terry Mod said actually A joint wonderful contact.

[34:18] Ours said to me, and this, I don‘t know if it was her quote or someone else‘s, but I, now quote her, yeah. When I say this, but CX is no one‘s job because it‘s everyone‘s job. You go, Okay, but where do they point? How do they direct their energy? Is it being happier on the phone?

[34:34] Is it being faster to pick up the phone? Is it telling them when they‘ve gone over and outta scope? Is it, whose responsibility is that? Is it the junior lawyers? Is it the partners? There‘s no one accountable for this thing because it‘s amorphous. Yeah. It‘s the way holistic, holistically, you deliver all of the things, all the touch points across the firm.

[34:55] Therefore, it‘s for most firms, and it‘s still an enigma. They don‘t quite know how to solve it. The challenge being in the last few years, CX client experience, client‘s expectations and the client experience model, has evolved more in the last five years than in the last 50 or 60 years.

[35:15] Right before that. If you look back at the genesis of where CX even came from, customer satisfaction, et cetera, to the data we now have that‘s post COVID. And a lot of that is because, we turn digital and the expectations I have of what I order over here on, on online is similar to what I pay a lot of money for.

[35:35] Over here we in legal services though, think. No, that doesn‘t apply to us. We‘re, we are legal services. no, Goodness. no, you‘ll hear from us when we have an update. hang on. I get an update from the Iconic when it‘s left, the warehouse and when it‘s on its, Yeah. You couldn‘t even tell me that you‘ve received the papers from the other side, but you do you know what I mean? Yeah. It‘s like that. My expectations are constant communication. Firms one. Don‘t have human capacity to continue delivering, all of the things on a . And it‘s also then dependent on whose responsibility is it?

[36:08] And did the lawyer pick up the phone and give them an update or have you sent the email or, this is where I think AI can play a really important part. In, I think I said to you before, it‘s a weird analogy, but it‘s almost the spine of This experience. And connecting all of the customer journey and ensuring efficiency in delivering that customer journey, which means the parts that the lawyers have, involvement and touch points must be human.

[36:33] Yeah. That‘s the part that the client really wants. Yeah. Listen to me, ask me good questions, show that you‘re thinking about me, solve my problems, be proactive. All of those wonderful things. Without the, then thinking about, oh shit, have I sent them the update or have they sent them? Have we asked them about that or do you know what I mean?

[36:51] Yeah. It‘s that, that human failure rate in the middle,

[36:54]Sarah: that cognitive load.

[36:55]Kim: Yeah. Hugely. So I do think CX is moving shifting again significantly because of ai. So we had that big shift between COVID. Now the customer journey is shifting yet again. And I hope. I hope, that law firms don‘t go so far.

[37:11] That they take the human elements out of it. Because we know from research that people want to buy services from humans. From humans. And legal is a human to human exchange. Yeah. So I hope that they don‘t go all the other way and go, we‘re just gonna almost take the pressure of CX off us and just automate everything.

[37:29] so I do think, Having someone internally to drive that consistently is important, whoever that might be, and own it and be accountable for it. and I do think importantly, ensuring the human elements are maintained. Both critical things.

[37:46]Sarah: I really wanna change direction, but I have to ask you this question.

[37:49] If no one is, if there isn‘t one role in the firm that is accountable for cx. Who sets the standard

[37:59]Kim: CEO managing partner. And it‘s so the, model that I built a number of years ago around CX operations, because I do think there‘s operational maturity. And then that‘s not just with cx Yeah.

[38:11] With all things. Within a law firm, but there‘s operational CX maturity within an organization and that‘s. At that point are four layers that I‘d crafted by firm to client engagement. Touch points. How competent, capable are we of having a wonderful conversation with Sarah, who is my client? And making sure Sarah feels heard and that I‘m responding to, and that I‘m, nice to deal with. ‘cause actually that‘s, a decision making criteria. Genuinely. Yeah. Then you got under, that‘s a processes, tools, policies. Are we making sure that there are processes around, onboarding and asking for when would you like your bills and how often and what process?

[38:48] And is it e-billing or is it, are we even asking those things? Mostly not like even an onboarding document. Even then, down to, process around asking for feedback at the end. mid matter check-ins. whatever it might be. They‘re innocuous. Then you‘ve got people talent, l and OD if.

[39:07] AI is becoming the spine. What then does the human become Yeah. The limb. Does your limb know how to do all the things you now need that to do in the most impactful way? Which is empathetic. Which is the human touch. Are we training our team on that now? As opposed to process orientated?

[39:25] ‘cause AI‘s taken that over. So this is not just CX orientated, this is all of law firms grappling with this. But are we building that into the concept Oh, of, training. Around service orientation, and I haven‘t told you that I have been paid by firms to train their receptionists and PEs, et cetera.

[39:43] How to answer the phone. How to have a good quality first contact. Conversation, which might feel a bit ridiculous, but that‘s a really important element to this, right? Yeah. you‘ve got that people element. Then you‘ve got leadership, culture, vision, purpose. That is owned by and driven by your leadership team, which is predominantly your managing partner.

[40:06] ELT. Are they living and breathing? Client centricity at the core and client centricity being, are we thinking about our clients? Are we responding to their needs? Are we proactively seeking out opportunities for them? have we, got all of the right. I dunno, cultural purpose and values, et cetera, that reflect that.

[40:27] That‘s gotta be driven by your leadership team. Yeah. And if we see leadership doing this thing, and again, not just within cx, this is cultural across anything, harassment, DNI and all of those wonderful things that we not harassment. Wonderful, initiatives that we lead within firms. Yeah.

[40:44] Must be driven by leadership. So I do think accountable. Everyone. Everyone, they all have a role. Yeah. Driving it and showing the way your senior most humans.

[40:58]Sarah: Kim, what is the most challenging thing about the work you do or what‘s been one of the toughest moments in your career?

[41:06]Kim: the work that I do, I probably talk more recent experience. In terms of the work that I‘m doing and the work that I‘ve been doing. And again, time on your feet. You learn as you go, right? You do. Stakeholder management and what I would do in a, in any role is transformational change, small or large, but we are transforming and changing process, approach, methodology, whatever it might be.

[41:34] Stakeholder management, I used to think was communication. I have communicated to. And I, I‘m right. We are ready. I‘ve got my plan. I know what I‘m doing, and I‘ve communicated. We are good. I now appreciate the nuance to stakeholder management in a very different way, and that for anything to be successful in a more firm context, I‘ll talk to in a little firm context, you must have consulted with, listened to, appreciated the agendas and the various perspectives.

[42:07] Of the stakeholders now in most law firms, that‘s a leadership team and or equity partners sitting around a table of 26 equity partners, for example, and saying, I‘ve shared my approach to this. This is how we‘re taking this forward, da, Any concerns whether or not they raise anything? If I haven‘t consulted with Workshopped prior to.

[42:35] Prior to, yeah. And ensured that whatever I put forward meets that partner‘s needs and that partner or at least sits under the threshold of a barrier to acceptance, right? So I know this person‘s not gonna be bought into this at all. But they, and they may not be as proactive about enacting or enabling whatever I‘m putting forward, but they‘re not gonna block me.

[42:59] Yeah. Because it meets enough of the criteria. Yeah. And then going in and saying, I‘ve listened to each of you. I understand what I‘m asking of each of you. And I‘ve outlined some of the risks and we‘re, you are all on board with any concerns is very different. One way pushing out. And this is where I feel like, collaboration‘s important, right?

[43:21] Pushing out and saying. I‘ve made a decision and I‘ve shared with you and I‘ve told you, and this is what we‘re doing to, I‘ve sought input from each of you. I‘ve canvassed your views. I‘ve taken those on board. I‘ve adapted my approach to reflect them. And this is what we‘re taking forward.

[43:38] With already, with the buy-in of their most senior humans. CEO chair, whatever it might be. Is a very different approach.

[43:45] Yeah.

[43:46] The buy-in, the difference in buy-in is extreme.

[43:51] Yeah.

[43:52] And nothing will succeed in any law firm unless you have those humans buy-in. Yeah. So I think that‘s probably been a, tricky learning point for me.

[44:02] Yeah. ‘Cause I do like to just get on with it and move, but that deep consultation Yeah. And appreciation of each individual PR partner‘s practice and agenda. Has been an important learning point for me, and it‘s something I would en encourage my team to do. Have you sought out that person? You‘re gonna need to check in with that person first and make sure that they‘re on board with this ‘cause they‘re gonna be a blocker. So understanding that and mapping that stakeholder management process is critical.

[44:31]Sarah: How much time? So say you‘ve got a presentation coming up, or you‘ve got a, you‘ve got an executive board decision that needs to be pre presented and made.

[44:39] Yes. How much time would you spend consulting and priming proportionate to that moment that you

[44:51] meet with?

[44:51]Kim: Hugely, massively. if I talk to I‘ve got a program on the go at the moment, within a mid-tier firm, it‘s creating a strategic plan for part of their business and an obviously implementation plan underneath, I presented a week and a half ago.

[45:10] The data results and outputs of what I‘ve heard and what I‘ve seen so far. So it was an hour and a half. This is what I‘ve seen. This is what I‘ve heard. These are the financial results. Here‘s the forecast. here‘s the, guts of it. Here‘s what I think some of your concerns are. Here‘s what I think the risks are.

[45:27] Here‘s the approach I think we should take forward. That was after a meeting with each of the people in the room. It was probably 12. 12 people in the room, 10 people in the room. I‘ve now asked the internal manager to be going individually seeking feedback from each of them. And she‘s now going through that process of getting feedback from each of them.

[45:49] Next steps will be, again, to take back another thought pro a thought, extension of where we got to and an initial scope of. strategic choices back to them and seek more input from them. And then it‘ll be saying, okay, we‘re pretty much signed off on this. and we may then look to present back to a broader group.

[46:09] Before we even press go on. Okay. Now we create the implementation plan. We just want that higher level view. Are we okay with the choices we are making? Are we okay with the impact on those? And we were really gonna have to either invest or pull back. So for the hour and a half that I presented, and probably the other hour and a half, I‘ll present on the next phase.

[46:32] Not my work on the tools, but just consultation 10 times that. And that‘s critical and I‘m keep pressing the manager internally to say, we must be asking for that feedback and that guidance. Even if they say, no, I‘m comfortable with it. Yeah. The pure act of asking for that feedback. Means they‘re endorsing it.

[46:53] Yeah. And we have their buy-in. But that again, even versus the last time I consulted a couple of years ago, I probably didn‘t appreciate even back then. The importance. So they, there should be no surprises when you get in the room. Exactly. There should be No, they should already know what you‘re gonna present.

[47:12] Yeah. And what the guts of it is. Yeah. It should be pretty enough that they‘re impressed. And go, oh, that‘s really interesting. And collectively go, ah,

[47:20] yeah,

[47:20] but they should not be surprised. Yeah. So I think ultimately. That has gotta be the biggest shift for me. In terms of how I manage the work I do, the quality of the work, I ha I do.

[47:33] Hasn‘t changed. The direction. my technical expertise hasn‘t changed, but the way I socialize, consult, and move forward with the program of work definitely changed.

[47:44]Sarah: It‘s also, it‘s the invisible work

[47:48] as well.

[47:49]Kim: So True. I haven‘t thought about that yet. So true.

[47:51]Sarah: It‘s the invisible work that is. I think it‘s really hard to teach too, because you can‘t always have someone who‘s trying to learn it, be in the room with you.

[48:00] Agreed. Sometimes you can, but you can‘t always do it ‘cause it changes the dynamic. And so then trying to teach that to someone and the value Yes. Of having those conversations is a tricky teaching exercise.

[48:13]Kim: A

[48:13] hundred percent. And I think that comes to, two, two things. I think leadership and. Are you in a position where you can educate and share

[48:23] and

[48:23] showcase?

[48:24] So whilst I‘m not in a, leadership position, I‘m a consultant in this situ situation scenario, I‘m trying to take that manager through it to say, okay, this is why we need their buy-in and guidance. So this is how I would approach this. Can you go and have these conversations so that next time she may actually do.

[48:41] do that process. sharing and educating why you do something. Yep. But also from the flip side, from the individual, ask people, how can I make this more impactful? Only because I‘ve said, what would have made this successful? I, should have known what you were gonna put on the screen before you put it up, Kim.

[48:59] Okay. Okay. So, asking. Seeking, but then again, that makes you vulnerable. It does. To our point earlier. It does. Yeah. And I do think vulnerability is a core strength, which sounds ridiculous. It‘s a core strength to have, being okay with being vulnerable. Yeah. ‘cause that enables you to grow.

[49:19] It‘s that growth zone, right? out of comfort zone, into growth zone. Exactly. It feels very scary, but only through doing that do you then go, ah, it‘s that leap, that click. So I do think, where you can sharing and, educating others in a non patronizing way. And also asking for and seeking input.

[49:38] How can I do this better or different?

[49:40]Sarah: Super valuable. Last question for you. Yes. You have a magic wand for a day, and you can change the legal industry. You get three wishes. Okay? What are they?

[49:58]Kim: The industry or lawyers? Who am I changing?

[50:01]Sarah: Ooh, your choice.

[50:02]Kim: My choice. Oh, do you know? I think by changing. Lawyers, you by default change the industry a little bit. Yeah. I think commerciality is so critical. And I don‘t think we do enough within law firms To share and educate.

[50:25] All people on the commerciality of the firm. How does the firm make money? How does it run? what are the important things to note? I could ask, and I did ask many people at various firms I‘ve been at, you know what‘s our revenue? Or they wouldn‘t have a clue. if you don‘t know where the revenue is, who the highest performing people are, how you are judged ultimately.

[50:44] Wow. So I would hope that lawyers understand how the business of law operates. Even down to the metrics of leverage and ride. how do you write something off that impacts the profitability of that matter, of that client, that group, be conscious of those things. Yeah. ‘cause it changes then how you go about and operate.

[51:05] It does. I think So commerciality, I think we spoke about this before the study on. On lawyer skills, right? So people going into law power to you. The skills that, at least the study from Dr. Lowry Richards, his study of, I think it‘s the caliper skillset. Show that. Lawyers are predominantly strong in particular areas, autonomy problem solving, those kinds of things.

[51:34] They‘re not particularly strong in empathy, resilience, collaboration. They‘re not areas that traditionally the lawyer personality profile, is comfortable in. I would hope that we are able to strengthen those skills because I think empathy, collaboration. Resilience, they‘re all requirements.

[51:58] And there‘s a, there‘s the Google study I can‘t remember what it was called some fantastical name where they looked at one of the markers of high performing teams. Project Aristotle. There you go. Yeah. Perfect. And it is empathy and it‘s psychological safety and it‘s. .

[52:12] Purpose. Imagine. Yeah. Pur, imagine if across the legal industry we had people prioritizing those things. And not just the billable metrics. So I think flipping it from one, understand the drivers, but two, lean into the human elements. AI‘s gonna take care of a lot of the other stuff, to be honest with you, in the next five to 10 years.

[52:31] So lawyers of the future lean into being human, build better teams. High performing teams. I think that‘s a critical area. What else? Oh, I would like there to be a demolition of the past system, as someone who spent my career. In business services within law firms. Yeah. you‘re the other people.

[53:03] which look, I‘m, I‘ve learned to navigate well, and I enjoy that. And, I make fun of myself going, I know I‘m just a fee burner, but, but it is, I think it limits me often in a room and I‘d be in a room with an, a multidisciplinary team of humans, wonderful, amazing humans.

[53:19] We are including some lawyers. And sometimes I‘d sit there and go, ha. The smartest people in this room are not the lawyers. And yet they‘re not being listened to. Yeah. So I think ultimately having respect for and appreciation for the expertise. I have more experience and expertise in what I do, which brings tangible value.

[53:38] Longer term, actually lifetime value, probably more than. What a lawyer my age brings to the table, or a partner, for example. Or a junior partner Brings to the table, on a lifetime value of billables. I have the potential to create more value for firm on its lifetime value because of the systemic, change I could make.

[53:57] That enable client growth in profitable ways, et cetera. Yeah. So I do think, ultimately having respect for the expertise and experience of the people in the room and the impact they can have on your firm. Positive impact. I would love to see that. Barrier between the social casts eliminated.

[54:18]Sarah: I love it. Three wishes that are very human in their description. Yeah. Kim, this has been so wonderful. Yeah. I could talk to you for so much longer. I wanted to go down so many more tangents. I‘m gonna have to have you back. Thank you so much for today. Thank you for having me. Wonderful.

[54:42] That wraps up our episode of This Multidisciplinary Life. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give it a thumbs up, a like you know the drill and subscribe for more episodes. And if you‘re interested in being a guest on the show to share your multidisciplinary life, you can get in touch with us through the links in the show notes.

[54:58] This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land and brought to you by Sarah

[55:02] El-Atm, researcher, consultant, and speaker on multidisciplinary teams. It is created in collaboration with balloon tree productions and marketing expertise from August. This multidisciplinary life wouldn‘t be possible without the support from the wonderful guests who share their stories and perspectives, as well as the brilliant multidisciplinary team who helped me bring these important stories to life.