Episode 9

[00:00] Sarah: Hello and welcome to this multidisciplinary life. Imagine you have a new project that has just been signed off. You‘re excited, but also a little nervous. It‘s a complex, knotty problem. It‘s multifaceted. It might even be a little more complex to what you‘re used to. You won‘t get the result you need for your organisation by delegating the project to a single discipline team.

[00:23] You‘re keen to bring in different perspectives, but that decision carries risk. You might not get the results you‘re used to. It might be because you‘re using a new methodology. It might be because the skill sets of your team are highly capable, but are not your specialisation. You are also aware that if the project doesn‘t produce a good outcome, it‘s likely to affect your reputation in the organisation.

[00:46] On the flip side, what if the results far surpassed your expectations? You might discover that you can solve more complex and higher value challenges for your clients and the organisation because you‘ve worked out how to lead a team that are statistically proven to outperform homogenous teams. And you‘ve worked at how to bring people together with different disciplines, perspectives, and specialisms.

[01:10] Today‘s conversation is an interesting one where we‘ll touch on things you need in place to harness the value and potential of an MDT or a multidisciplinary team. Techniques for effective leadership in an MDT and structuring MDTs to mitigate risk. My guest today is Nathan Bellgrove. Nathan is Partner and Global Practice head of Ashurst Advance Solutions.

[01:34] We‘re going to get into a bit more about what Ashurst Advance does in a moment, but first, let me tell you a little bit about Nathan hailing from the UK. Nathan has spent his career at the intersection of business and law with a keen curiosity for bringing people together from different perspectives and disciplines to achieve novel and innovative outcomes.

[01:54] I invited him on the show because I think he has a unique perspective and story to tell in how he works with multidisciplinary teams as well as the mindset he adopts in leading and building teams. Let‘s get into it.

[02:11] Nathan, I‘m so excited that we‘re having this conversation today. Thank you for joining me.

[02:16] Nathan: Oh, I‘m delighted to be here in this wonderful, cosy studio on a very damp and cold Melbourne morning.

[02:22] Sarah: Oh, it is. It is. So we have a lot to chat through, and I‘m really excited to get into some of the nitty gritty questions and details.

[02:31] My first question for you though, is what brought you to the law and what has kept you in the legal profession?

[02:38] Nathan: Oh, that‘s a great question and sends me on a bit of a trip down at memory lane. Look, I think I had a fairly conventional entry into the legal profession, though I, throughout my career and probably relevant to where I‘ve ended up.

[02:53] I hedged my bets from the beginning and did a joint degree in law and business. Okay. I then practised in litigation in the UK for a number of years before moving to Australia and continued my work as a litigation practitioner. I think what‘s probably kept me interested though, is the switch that I made into into new law, into ES Advance, which was now about seven or eight years ago.

[03:16] And I think continuing that passion for both the legal profession as a professional service, but also now being involved in the the running of part of a firm in a, in a business management capacity.

[03:31] Sarah: I‘m curious to know, practising litigation in the UK and in Australia, what were some of the differences that you noticed?

[03:42] Nathan: I, I think the, the major difference is probably that career those two parts of my career straddle different. Time periods. And I think what I‘ve seen, so what I saw in my litigation career in Australia is probably, the emergence of the sorts of technologies that we are now seeing

[04:02] Accelerate at a rate of knots. Whereas my, my, my career back in, in the UK and it really wasn‘t that long ago was at a time when things like discovery were still to some extent paper-based. Whereas now we hardly have any instances where we have to delve back into, cardboard boxes full of full of paper documents. So I think very different. You know what, I think the two difference the major difference that I‘ve, between the two careers is probably that, that shift in, in technology actually.

[04:31] Sarah: And what‘s it been like having that business management and entrepreneurial brain in ES Advance?

[04:39] ‘cause that‘s different from purely being a practicing lawyer as well.

[04:43] Nathan: Yeah, look, I think that‘s a huge privilege because it‘s meant that my career has, enabled me to play a role in the strategic direction of the firm. And the way in which the firm remains current and hopefully actually, outpaces some of its competitors in this area.

[05:03] I think it‘s been it‘s been a real. Steep learning curve and I think, every day is at the moment as we face into, not only continuing. Pressures that we face and that our clients face in terms of costs and constantly changing regulatory environments.

[05:19] But also as I mentioned a moment ago, that ever increasing rate of technological change.

[05:25] Sarah: Absolutely. So take me through a day to day. What is a day to day or a week to week look like for you?

[05:32] Nathan: So day to day can, week to week month to month, year to year can be all very, can be very different.

[05:37] I starting to, probably just trying to set the scene a bit. I, we are a big team. We are about 200 people globally spread across about 10 different locations. So multiple time zones in. The uk, Europe, middle East, Asia and Australia. So in, in any number of those days I think I‘ll, I can be working certainly closely with my colleagues here in Australia on matters or on internal projects, but.

[06:10] But there will also be probably an element of me working on stuff which will require me to be involved with teams in other locations, whether they be other practices within the firm in other locations or indeed my colleagues within Advance.

[06:26] Sarah: And so the firm really works quite collaboratively across all those different locations and time zones.

[06:32] It‘s not as if each city or location is its own entity. As such it‘s very much not at all. And

[06:39] Nathan: collaboration‘s a key value, and a big focus on how we operate. We think that‘s the way in which we bring. The best of ourselves and the whole of the firm to our clients to help them solve business problems.

[06:53] It‘s very rare that what we are asked to do by our clients is solely focused on a single. Legal issue that requires advice. Yeah. It‘s often that we, we, it might start that way, but it can often end up with a much broader mandate that involves us helping the client.

[07:11] Operationalise that advice within their business. And sometimes also help them with outcomes or consequences of, put that particular problem, which are at a scale that they can‘t do, that they can‘t manage on their own. Yeah. And that‘s really, that‘s a lot of the time, that‘s where as Advance can come in and help.

[07:28] Sarah: And help. It‘s really fascinating. I often think of that, phrase, you can‘t be a prophet in your own land. And so sometimes having that external team assist with change or implementation can be really valuable for the client‘s team because they might not be able to do it themselves or they‘ll get stuck.

[07:47] They might get stuck just through bureaucracy or politics, but having someone like you and your team come in and offer that guidance, it, it‘s. Taken a different way, it‘s interpreted a different way as well. Have you found that through working with different clients over the years?

[08:03] Nathan: De definitely. And I think what we found is that our clients really value our ability to have touch points within their organisation that are not just limited to the.

[08:16] The legal team. And be able to under instantly understand, the business pressures that those parts of their business might be under, and the different priorities that they have and the different perspectives that they have on the challenge that we‘re, we are trying to solve.

[08:30] It‘s not often that something is solved with a single legal advice. Yeah. It often requires a much more practical application of that advice to a client‘s business.

[08:41] Sarah: That‘s such a good point. ‘cause quite often when a client is coming to a lawyer, they‘re seeking reassurance and risk mitigation as opposed to a marketing firm where they‘re seeking inspiration or help in different ways.

[08:54] But that reassurance and then being able to see mirrored roles in your team as well as theirs, yeah. I think adds that level of credibility too.

[09:03] Nathan: And we‘ve got such a diversity of backgrounds in terms of the people in our teams that, we can we‘ve usually got somebody who has, walked in the client‘s shoes bef before in terms of having experience that particular. Problem or a problem like it or alternatively has got some skillset that is at least relevant to, to that, and that we can bring to bear in terms of trying to solve the challenge that they‘re facing into.

[09:30] Sarah: And because you are so collaborative globally as a team, it sounds like that means if someone is in.

[09:39] Glasgow or the Middle East or London, you can call on them and work with them. And it‘s not so much that you‘re stuck with the Australian team trying to figure out how do we. Find someone who has this problem, there‘s someone already in our team that we can bring in and be part of.

[09:56] Nathan: No, not at all. And, that can happen and it frequently does happen. And I can think of several instances just in the course of the last week where I‘ve spoken. With people because what we are seeking to do is make sure that we are bringing the best talent that we‘ve got to the problem.

[10:13] Yeah. For instance, we‘ve got a significant team from our Glasgow office at the moment working on a, a big project for one of. Big four Australian banks. That‘s not an unusual scenario. We had a large project running for another of the big four Australian banks a couple of years ago that ran for about 18 months.

[10:32] And, that was run through both our Brisbane team and our Glasgow team providing resources and then working that on a kind of, almost 24 hour basis to, to mean that we could get through the volume that we were required to get through by the

[10:47] by the client. So it can be it‘s something which we, we do frequently.

[10:52] And certainly to just go back to your original question around collaboration. That the firm as a whole really prides itself on and is actually seeking to do, more and more we, we look at how, how can we bring in, more practice areas to help the client here. Is this something where we actually need to involve other offices?

[11:10] Rather than overextend from a single office.

[11:13] Sarah: Nathan, what‘s it like to lead a team? Like the one you are leading, knowing that you are a global team, highly collaborative, you‘ll travel a lot and see each other. However, a lot of the time you‘re also quite remote and dealing with different time zones.

[11:30] I can imagine there‘s some unique challenges and perspectives that come up for you. What‘s that like?

[11:36] Nathan: There are there are a lot of challenges to, to that. But I think first and foremost though I‘m. I‘m really excited by the the fact that we‘ve got such a geographically diverse team and what that brings to to the business in terms of op opportunities.

[11:53] And I don‘t just mean necessarily client opportunities, but opportunities for our people as, as well. It can be very challenging, particularly working. The UK Australia time zone. Yeah. And at certain times of the year, that can be particularly difficult. Definitely. We do try to, I have, a number of direct reports in that time zone and have regular check-ins with them and then some, more irregular ones depending on what‘s going on.

[12:19] But I think what we try to do is be as kind as we can to each other and make sure that. Where possible, where solving things within the time zone and that those interactions that then need to take place at slightly less sociable times of the day are. Are kept to are kept to a minimum.

[12:36] But inevitably when you‘re running a global business, there‘s always gonna be a need for you to speak to people. And usually in Australia that can be, that‘s usually in Australia, that‘s in the evening. And in the, and it will be in the morning in the uk. But there are times when that kind of flips quite nicely as well.

[12:51] And I‘m more of a morning person, so I don‘t mind getting up early and, and speaking to people then, if that works for them.

[12:58] Sarah: Yep. How do you this is a slight side tangent, but I‘m really curious, when you are juggling time zones, how do you manage your energy as a leader to be able to.

[13:09] Show up for your team at those awkward times when maybe you are exhausted, you‘ve had a, you‘ve had a big day as well. What‘s that? How do you deal with that? How do you manage that?

[13:19] Nathan: First of all, I suppose try not to get to the point where you‘re exhausted.

[13:21] Yeah. That‘s step one. And try and avoid that as much as possible. Look, there are times when I can find a free slot during the course of the day too. Get a bit of downtime and whatever form that might be, whether it‘s, exercising or just doing something else. Because I know that come the evening, there‘s something major that I need to face into with the team and I want to be there for them and they might need me to be there for them.

[13:47] It‘s all about managing that. That energy budget that you‘ve got. I think individually and making sure that you‘re not imposing too much on yourself. Because at the end of the day it is a marathon. It‘s not a sprint and Very true. And I think, I want be able, I want to, be the best that I can be when I‘m there. And I think, turning up to those sorts of scenarios in a slightly depleted state is is never particularly helpful.

[14:12] Sarah: No. And it‘s hard because the team know when you‘re not feeling your best anyway. Yeah. And it‘s tricky.

[14:19] It‘s tricky. Yeah.

[14:20] Nathan: We actually have a couple of days a week where we try to avoid. Meetings within our own team completely. And one of those is Friday, which, but then we also do one in the middle of the week as well. And that just means that the people in Australia don‘t have any calls in the evening.

[14:34] Hopefully. And then the people in the UK don‘t have any calls early morning because obviously for them they‘ve got all sorts of other pressures in including trying to get. Small people out the door to school or get themselves into the office, actually. Yeah, some people have quite long commutes in London.

[14:48] And that can, mean that they, if they‘re not leaving their house until 10:00 AM because they‘ve been on the phone, then it can be that they don‘t arrive in London until getting on for midday. Yeah. Yeah.

[14:56] Sarah: Yeah. Interesting challenges. Interesting challenges In terms of the, I guess the remote way of working that you have with your team.

[15:06] How do you manage. Things like psychological safety and team cohesion. What‘s that like for you?

[15:14] Nathan: Not being face to face with the team can make those things a lot more challenging. They are things like psychological safety are topics that we regularly come back to. As a leadership team. We‘ve got a wonderful people and culture business. Partner team that help us with that. We‘ve actually wrapped a whole program of work, which we call Aspire. Around the people side of the Ashe Advance business. And that‘s not just.

[15:42] Linked to things like psychological safety. It also looks at stuff like, career prospects and wider aspects of wellbeing and things. Things like that. Yeah. So that‘s an important reference point. And structure. That enables us to focus on those sorts of things.

[15:58] I think that, that, but you, there is no substitute for FaceTime and I, true. I find that, when I am able to. Visit the teams in other locations. It‘s really important that we make the most of that time. Normally, I go with at least an agenda in my head about a few things that I want to achieve.

[16:17] And then we‘ll have some more kind of formal structure around that. But I, I always walk away from those interactions thinking, God, that was really worthwhile. And there really is no substitute. For it. It just comes at a bit of a cost in terms of the time that it takes to travel.

[16:32] Yeah. And people being away from their families, et cetera.

[16:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. But I think knowing, I. Knowing that is coming up allows you to plan for it. And That‘s right. Exactly.

[16:43] Nathan: And encouraging pe other people, it‘s not, ‘cause it‘s not just me that has to do that. Encouraging people who do that to make sure that, you get the maximum possible impact.

[16:52] From those kinds of visits. Yeah. And that we‘re, we are sharing what some of those impacts were. We are looking at how we can do, the follow ups that need to be done. And I think, also using it as opportunities to connect with the wider business as well.

[17:06] Because there‘s a whole big law firm out there that forms part of our, actually, part of our client base, really. And so making sure that we make the most of those opportunities to connect with with partners and other people within those practices.

[17:19] Sarah: True. Very true.

[17:20] And thinking about the Ashurst Advance clients, when you are working on a problem for a client, how does the team come together? It sounds like they come together for a specific challenge. Are there teams within Ashurst Advance that always work together, or do you really bring in the experts that you need for a specific client problem?

[17:44] Nathan: We, we have a couple of teams which are focused on particular types of work. But even within them, there‘s a degree of or with them, there‘s a degree of fluidity in the sense that we can take people outta those teams if we need to for whatever reason. But generally speaking, we operate in a matrix structure where people are, people are within communities of expertise, right? So we have our, our, all of our people that focus on digital and e-discovery work sit within a community of expertise. We then have our. Delivery professionals who sit within another community, our legal operation professionals who sit within another community. And that‘s for that‘s because there‘s a lot to be gained from those people coming together as experts in their particular field.

[18:36] And discussing, challenges or developments in that particular area. But when it comes to working on. Client matters then generally, we are forming teams and disbanding teams as the need arises.

[18:51] And how those teams come together will very much depend on what the project is. Yeah. A lot of our work is in areas that we, where we frequently operate, have done before. We might well bring together. The same people or a team that‘s very similar to the team that worked on it on the similar thing last time.

[19:10] But there‘s also. Opportunities come up where we there might be a challenge that we might be dealing with for the first time, or at least aspects of it for the first time. It may be that we‘re gonna be building some kind of proof of concept or trialing something with collaborating with a client‘s, with a, a client‘s internal team on something.

[19:31] And we‘ll look at that very differently and structure the team very differently depending on. Exactly what the needs are but frequently, I suppose the short answer to your question, Sarah, is, there are people coming together and in, in lots of different ways all of the time.

[19:44] And we form teams around problems, bringing the best talent that we can to that particular challenge.

[19:51] Sarah: And in terms of the disciplines that come together, obviously there‘s lawyers in the mix. What other disciplines are there?

[19:59] Nathan: So we have a large, and as you might expect, growing team of digital experts. And these are people that come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Some of them focus. Almost entirely in the e-discovery space. Other have more general sort of data experience. We have a team which are focused entirely on develop, developing, developing solutions in the Microsoft stack.

[20:30] So that‘s, it‘s quite broad. That‘s quite broad. Yeah. Yeah, it‘s pretty broad. And then we‘ve got Le Legal Op, our legal operations team. And even within that team, we‘ve got people who are more focused on legal project management. We‘ve got people who are focused more on process improvement type work and other people who can turn their hand to legal, operations, consultancy work when you know, clients are looking for us to come in and help improve how they operate as an in-house legal team.

[20:55] Sarah: So the professionals that are not practicing law, so they‘re not practicing lawyers and they‘re working within Ashurst Advance, what does the career path look like for them? How does that. How does that work? So I‘m conscious in the traditional model of a law firm, there‘s a very obvious career path for a lawyer and there‘s clear steps and they‘re very well known and very well worn as well.

[21:17] What does it look like for someone who has a different discipline and is performing really well and wants to build their career at Ashurst Advance? What does that look like?

[21:26] Nathan: That‘s a really great question. That, and that‘s something which we have devoted a lot of energy to over the years because we wanted.

[21:34] To offer people who were not lawyers a different, but nevertheless, rewarding career pathway through a global law firm that had as much potential as people that were sitting out there in a traditional practicing role. And we actually I. Adapted our approach to that a couple of years ago to ensure that we had a level structure that enabled people to progress up to at least the level of becoming a director within Advance.

[22:07] And now actually we are looking at partnership prospects for people who are not. Lawyers as well. And there are structures within the firm that, that enable that to to happen.

[22:18] Sarah: Wow.

[22:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[22:19] Sarah: That‘s so encouraging to hear. That‘s fantastic. And so director level is immediately under partner, is that‘s right.

[22:27] I got that right.

[22:28] Nathan: That‘s right. Yeah.

[22:29] Sarah: Wow. And so someone can really start, whether they start as a junior or a mid. Tier professional, they can really work up to becoming director level and eventually if they want to work towards partner.

[22:41] Nathan: Absolutely. And we, we are looking now, I think at people who started their career with us very early on.

[22:49] In their career journey. So probably just as a graduate, we are probably now looking at the. First wave of those people coming through. And knocking on the door of the sort of associate director and director level, which is really encouraging. In terms of what we set out to achieve at the very outset.

[23:07] Yeah. And I think also testament to the quality of the talent that we have attracted and retained over the years as well. So I think that‘s, that‘s a really. It‘s a really exciting, thing for us. Absolutely. But also really re rewarding part of my role as well.

[23:24] Sarah: Yeah. Super exciting.

[23:27] Alright, Nathan, I‘m gonna take a different direction a little bit. I‘m aware that ES Advance has. Done a lot with or does do a lot with ai. And AI in the legal profession is very much a hot topic in all sorts of perspectives and lenses and uses as well. I‘m really interested in this concept of AI within multidisciplinary teams and how it functions within the team how it‘s utilised by the team.

[23:58] And at some point, does it become. A quasi team member in some ways, possibly in the future. How is your team using ai and what have you noticed within the multidisciplinary perspective where AI is helping the team in some way? Has what? What has it changed for them?

[24:20] Nathan: Yeah, Sarah, look, that is a big topic and one that we could possibly return to with either an, another podcast or a whole series of podcasts.

[24:27] So I‘ll try to keep my answer quite brief, but look, I think the biggest change that we are seeing is the prominence of, AI related skills within the firm. But the one that I‘m probably noticing most day to day. Is the confluence of skills. The d the originally, historically we‘ve had people that were delivery experts and people that were digital experts.

[24:50] And I think what we are now seeing is the emerging of those two skills now. Because there is, if you think about that concept of the human in the loop, it‘s really important that people, understand how AI can. Accelerate or help solve a particular challenge. And I, there, there are skills that need to be, that need to be learned in terms of the way that you interface with. Particular platforms that we use, people need now to have, prompting skills. And they need to understand what the consequences are, if the prompts that they give are not great, and how they actually go through that process of iteration to, to improve them and what the limitations are in terms of the outputs that they might be getting.

[25:37] And therefore, the f the further governance and quality checks that are needed to make sure that. We are getting the maximum benefit that we can from the tech.

[25:45] Sarah: Has it changed anything in the, how do I describe this, in the ways of working for the team?

[25:55] Nathan: I think it has changed the ways of working of the team.

[25:59] And. We are getting a lot of inquiries from clients who want to know, how it should be changing the way that they work. And we are trying to help them with that, with the work that we are doing ourselves. Internally, I think we‘re only probably. Whilst we‘ve invested a lot of a lot of time, a lot of energy into the firm‘s AI journey.

[26:23] I think, we are at the beginnings of this like most people within the legal industry, and I very much, yeah. And I, but I, so I fully expect that rate of change will accelerate over. Over the coming years.

[26:35] Sarah: It‘s fascinating. I often think that where we are now with AI is the most elementary it will ever be.

[26:42] Yeah. It‘s only going to get more advanced.

[26:44] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. That‘s right. Exactly.

[26:46] Sarah: And the rate, as you say, it‘s changing so fast. It‘s almost really difficult to know what it will look like

[26:54] Yeah.

[26:55] Sarah: In even 12 months or six months time. That‘s right. Because the rate of change is something we haven‘t really experienced before.

[27:01] Nathan: No, that‘s right. The worst AI you‘ll ever use is the one that you use yesterday. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[27:05] Sarah: It‘s just getting better and better. How, what‘s the team‘s response been like to embracing AI and using it in their work? I just

[27:14] Nathan: think everybody‘s, really excited. And that‘s across the board within the firm.

[27:19] We introduced Harvey, as a legal specific AI platform. It‘s about now it‘s about really embracing like how much we can use it to change the way. That we work.

[27:33] Yeah.

[27:33] Sarah: Yeah.

[27:34] Nathan: And the way that we leverage it. For the benefit of the firm‘s clients,

[27:38] Sarah: building those skills around prompting is a really interesting area to explore on human communication.

[27:47] And even thinking about how you, that the thought process into prompt, into prompting the writing process, into prompting, they‘re all new skills for particularly lawyers to be considering. How have you encouraged that curiosity to keep developing within the team?

[28:05] Nathan: Initially, when we first rolled out Harvey there was a whole program of change wrapped around that in order to ensure that that the, it got the maximum impact that it could upon launch across the firm.

[28:21] I can see a really, interesting and exciting future where people are coming together and collaborating, using the experiences that they‘ve had, trying to solve different problems with ai. And, sharing that and really just accelerating that, that rate of understanding and of capability that we have within the firm.

[28:45] Sarah: It‘s it‘s, yeah, it‘s so timely that you say that because I was thinking just recently about a couple of AI presentations that I‘ve seen over the course of 12 months and even 12 months ago. A lot of the examples were hypotheticals, whereas now, 12 months later, those examples and the presentations are very much use cases and real.

[29:07] Real life examples of what has been done in the last few months. And I think that‘s only going to get more real and more sophisticated and more proof points of actual actual tools that have been used and actual solutions that have been built and crafted through the use of AI and with ai as opposed to, this is what we could do in the future and this is what it might look like, rather than this is actually what we tried and this is how it worked.

[29:33] Nathan: Yeah.

[29:35] Sarah: Nathan, I have one last question for you. You have a magic wand for a day, and you‘re granted three wishes to change the legal profession or the legal industry. What would you change?

[29:49] Nathan: Wow. Three wishes. I think sticking with. The AI theme for a moment. And looking very broadly, out there at the wider society globally. A lot‘s been written and said about the benefits that AI could have in terms of just access to justice administration of justice.

[30:11] I‘d really like to see that.

[30:15] Having a, having an impact for people who perhaps don‘t necessarily have that access at the moment. Because of socioeconomics or because of geography or because historically legal systems have just been. Terribly complex to navigate for people who are not lawyers. Yeah.

[30:34] So that would be my first wish. Second wish I think would be that when it comes to the use of technology in the legal profession and by the legal profession, I probably mean the entire. Legal systems, so including the courts and regulators, we see everyone really trying to push the boundaries and really trying to get the maximum return that we can get on the use of tools like artificial intelligence.

[31:10] There are regulators and courts who are. Considering this, but I hope that it will be done in a way that means that we don‘t hold back. And that we enable the technology to really make, take things forward in leaps and bounds. And I think my last wish, Sarah, would be that we see lawyers.

[31:31] Opening their minds and really embracing the concepts of continuous learning and adaptation into ar inter areas, which probably historically they haven‘t necessarily seen as being part of the role of being a lawyer.

[31:48] Sarah: Ah, okay. That‘s more than just CPD, isn‘t it?

[31:52] Nathan: That‘s more than just CPD.

[31:54] Sarah: Yep.

[31:55] Nathan: Yeah.

[31:55] Sarah: And so even going back to the topic of AI and working within teams differently. Embracing other disciplines, working with other disciplines and learning how they operate as well. Is that what you mean by the continuous learning and opening their minds as well?

[32:12] Nathan: That‘s exactly what I mean.

[32:13] And I think also knowing that it‘s gonna be very rare in the future that a client comes to us with a challenge, and that challenge can be solved entirely through the provision of legal advice.

[32:28] Sarah: Even whether they can frame it as a legal problem or if they‘re just going to and clients do now, they‘ll frame something as a business problem.

[32:35] Nathan: That‘s exactly right. Yeah.

[32:37] Sarah: Nathan, this has been fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your insight. You‘ve been incredibly generous with your perspective. I cannot wait to speak again.

[32:47] Nathan: Thanks very much, Sarah. It‘s been great being here.

[32:56] Sarah: That wraps up our episode of This Multidisciplinary Life. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give it a thumbs up, a like you know the drill and subscribe for more episodes. And if you‘re interested in being a guest on the show to share your multidisciplinary life, you can get in touch with us through the links in the show notes.

[33:12] This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land and brought to you by Sarah El-Atm, researcher, consultant, and speaker on multidisciplinary teams. It is created in collaboration with balloon tree productions and marketing expertise from August. This multidisciplinary life wouldn‘t be possible without the support from the wonderful guests who share their stories and perspectives, as well as the brilliant multidisciplinary team who helped me bring these important stories to life.